The announcement of Ocalan's arrest at the Greek Embassy in Kenya, under circumstances not quite clear yet, immediately sparked a wave of Kurdish protests across Europe, with some supporters of Ocalan's Kurdish Workers Party setting themselves on fire y aknow if i protest somethingi might yell, or carry a sign, or bycott something but setting myself on fire is a little extreme immolation is a classic protest method not necessarily endorsable, but it certainly helps your cause: 1. media loves immolations 2. it generates sympathy ya know if someone sets someone else on fire, then i'll give the firee some sympathy if you set YOURSELF on fire, you belong int he Darwin awards so, any suicide belongs in the darwin awards? no, just the stupid ones example? setting yourself on fire to protest somebody's arrest there's more efficient ways of doing that how about: your girlfriend dumped you? is that a stupid suicide? can you think of a non-stupid suicide? sure if you decide you no longer want to live i would imagine that all the immolators in history (except any accidental ones, of course) had that same idea, not living any longer the whole logic i kill myself in some horrible way, then they'll listen is a little flawed, don't you think? i'm not judging it, but it does get people to listen yeah, so does writing a petition signed by 20000 people and nobody dies you might not agree with his cause, and think he's an idiot, but at least now you heard about it immolation's a hell of a lot easier than getting 20k signatures on a petition I also heard about the guy that got killed by urinated from the electrical pole, doens't mean it was smart when was the last time you signed a petition? if something is easier, is it smarter? THAT's a darwin award so if it's a darwin award, i cant' use it for comparison? i don't htink so apples and oranges why? not really both are just as stupid an accidental death caused by stupidity (pissing on an electical pole) is not the same as a suicide/immolation to me setting yourself on fire is just as stupid well, maybe i think that immolation isn't stupid, so we're not going to convince each other anyway perhaps you should set yourself on fire in protest to my opinions not worth it is ANYTHING worth it? probably yeah, like what that's a personal decision, i think well, political/religious protest is a common motive for immolators i suppose if you value your life so little, that 5 minutes of fame is worth dying in a horrible way i don't but, someone apparently does i still think that setting yourself on fire is not a great way to protest something. You hurt yourself and then can't protest any more. Why not set fire to an effigy of someone . You're still setting fire to something and NOT taking yourself out of the yeah, and they're stupid protest pool I suppose it's one way of eliminating idiots sm: ever hear of a martyr? it's self-martyrisation hehe which, historically, is a very effective motivator for supporters not really you get 5 minutes of fame people saying that poor guy, he died so horribly example: christ then they forget he didn't kill himself he was killed he let himself be martyred no he didn't have much of an option there you don't know your religion well, do you are you kidding? he's the fucking son of god i didn't know god could fuck :) he very easily could've said hold on, i'm in charge here he tried remember? the prayer in the garden? father take this cup away from me not to mention, he also knew he was going to raise from death rise wahtever the details, i still think it's a classic case of self -martyrisation no, it's not it's a nice story but that's all iti s of course, i don't believe a word of it you're comparing some idiot who sets himself on fire because his buddy is arrested to the death of christ? wow so if you don't believe it, how can you call it a classic case? now THAT is impressive i could've used an example of fiction as a classic case, too i'm just saying that OTHERS believe it or are inspired by it *** has taken off, eh i have no plans to kill myself in protest of anything damn, we were hoping :) hehehe really, i didn't know you're allowed to use fiction as a basis for an argument but, i think i can try to understand why they do it give it a try and report back to us i'm not using it as a basis, i'm saying that people are inspired by self-martyrs, and used Christ as an example hm btw, there is no such thing as a self-martyr of one such martyr that inspired people what do you mean, no such thing? *** Sarah2112!~wih@174-116-142.ipt.aol.com has joined #P/G! you can't be self-martyred someone martyrs YOU yeah hey mont, panacea an sarah if you torture yourself to death, it's your choice you're not a martyr you're just an idiot ok, let me redefine what i mean by Self-martyr -- you let yourself be martyred no, that's the same thing that guy didn't let himself be martyred he killed himself in the hopes of being martyred you eitehr ARE martyred, or you're NOT there's no inbetween there he's going to inspire those who also had whatever-belief-in-whatever- they-were-protesting that was his goal time will tell if it's successful or not a self-martyr is one of the masses of self-proclaimed nice guys who want to believe that's the reason the reason they can't get chicks instead of choosing to look at why they really suck. HAHAH sarah hehehe it was the will of god for christ to be on the cross. he didn't do it to be martyred. christ died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins besides.. doing something like jumping off a cliff doens' make you a martyr. you're a martyr if someone kills YOU for your beliefs. not if you kill yourself or maim yourself for your beliefs. then you are a zealot and being a zealot is your own perogative, but i stil think that if you hurt yourself in protest, it doesn't allow you to protest for either a short time or a long time which reduces your effectivity wouldn't a martyr for a cause also have to become synonymous with that cause? For example, would all of the student who were killed in Beijing be martyrs, or just the man who stood in front of the tanks and later was killed in prison? dunno 'bout that sarah We's have too many martyrs if every political prisoner worldwide deserved martyr status. too many? is there a limit to how many martyrs we can have? well a martyr by nature should make a profound impact, no? a martyr is someone who died for his convictions but not by his own hand sarah: i don't know if your impact really has an affect on your martyr status. i think if someone kills you for your beliefes, you're a martyr. unless they had no choice but to kill themselves but someone who sets himself on fire to protest something is not a martyr but an idiot A martyr, or a person who died for morality? martyr is typically a person who dies for religious convictions martyr n 1: one who suffers for the sake of principle [syn: suffer er] 2: one who voluntarily suffers death as the penalty for refusing to renounce their religion v 1 : kill as a martyr; Saint Sebastian was martyred 2: make into a martyr [syn: martyrize] What about the man in one of the nothern states (I don't recall which) who was executed recently for murdering women involved in cross-cultural relationships? Is he a martyr? that's different more like a murder er he was exectued for killing *** The time is 11:00 hm, if your religious convictions dictate murder not for believing it was wrong I do not know about his religion but he apparently believed interracial dating is immoral, and took an outrageous stand against it. yeah, but that doesn't make him a martyr what would make him a martyr to his convictions, if he was exectured for the belief and he was exectued not for teh belief,, but for killing and for all we know, people like him may believe him to be a martyr